agonizomai (Greek): to strive, fight, labour fervently
“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able..." Luke 13:24
Thanks for taking the time to read and to comment.
I tried in my post to convey the idea I believed Arminianism not to be a static belief system. What constituted Arminianism at the time of the Remonstrants was not the identical form taken on by the Wesleys. And the Arminianism of subsequent ages held by (some) prominent people and by many anonymous believers throughout the succeeding years was even further devolved from its early forms. Less "noble", if you like.
But since Arminianism in its nascent form questioned 5 areas of belief that the original reformers understood to be explicit in scripture, the church re-affirmed in response its original beliefs in a way tailored to address the specific questions. Since then, Armians have not, to my knowledge, rejected Arminianism's primary assertions. I contended that these assertions have had their influence on suceeding forms of belief that have come to be generally known as "modern Arminianism".
Strictly speaking, by "Arminianism" I mean a belief system that agrees with the Remonstrance on the 5 points at issue. But I don't contend that many of those who exhibit Arminian beliefs today necessarily recognize or identify themselves with the Remonstrance.
Thanks again for your gracious response. My other reader has yet to feel the need to comment :-)
I tried in my post to convey the idea I believed Arminianism not to be a static belief system.
I wonder if you’re allowing an opponent of Arminianism to define Arminianism? I am reminded of Muslims who say Christians view Mary as part of the godhead because of their mistaken interpretation of Catholic views.
The essentials of Arminianism (the 5 points of the remonstrants) include strong statements regarding the depravity of man, which is preserved in the Society of Evangelical Arminians statement of Faith: We believe that humanity was created in the image of God but fell from its original sinless state through willful disobedience and Satan's deception, resulting in eternal condemnation and separation from God. In and of themselves and apart from the grace of God human beings can neither think, will, nor do anything good, including believe.
Having read through your article, I have to state that you have done nothing to accurately reflect the beliefs of most of the body of Christ. I can only wonder how you came about such a distorted view of the church of Christ. Have you considered researching the actual beliefs of those who constitute the Arminian body of Christ rather than continue an on-going assertion that lacks substance or support? When I encounter these types of postings I can only marvel at how thoroughly men substitute sectarian polemics for evangelical fervor. Perhaps you need only be made aware of resources to help you come to a better understanding of those you are slandering. The following might be of benefit.
I wonder if you’re allowing an opponent of Arminianism to define Arminianism? I am reminded of Muslims who say Christians view Mary as part of the godhead because of their mistaken interpretation of Catholic views.
I don't think so. I tend to think of Prince Philip and Prince William in this situation. William is not Philip, but without Philip there could be no William. And they both have the surname "Windsor".
Though the essentials of Classical Arminianism "contain strong elements regarding the depravity of man" historically it is incontrovertible that they took a position that was contrary to the reformed church. And it is equally on the record that the Remonstrant view, including their view on the depravity of man, was sufficiently off base to be labeled heresy, and for the original teacher of its tenets to be posthumously anathematized.
Having "strong elements regarding the depravity of man", including all the things listed, ("We believe that humanity was created in the image of God but fell from its original sinless state through willful disobedience and Satan's deception, resulting in eternal condemnation and separation from God. In and of themselves and apart from the grace of God human beings can neither think, will, nor do anything good, including believe.") is commendable only insofar as those views are entirely congruent with the whole orthodoxy of the church on the matter of the depravity of man. If the Arminian position had done this, then the condemnation of its tenets would not have been so explicit. Then the Dutch would not need to have invented their saying of Arminius, "He may have been a heretic, but he was OUR heretic." :-)
So it falls to a proper systematic understanding of grace and salvation. The orthodox view of human depravity is that man lies in a state of spiritual death from which he can only be raised in Jesus Christ by the grace of God through faith in His finished work. It is in the operation of grace that the difficulty comes. Orthodoxy states that man is regenerated by an irresistible grace given to those for whom Christ died. But the Arminian view includes the element that saving grace is universally made available to all men by making the spiritually dead awake enough to make a right moral decision towards God. In the one case grace actually saves the elect and in the other case grace makes it possible for all to be saved, but does not necessarily save any one. So the actual meaning of the word "grace" is what is at issue. The church defined it one way and Arminianism, though it uses the same word, actually defines it another way.
The seemingly minor departure of the Classical Arminian view regarding the operation of grace upon human depravity, while so much closer to the truth than what is believed today by many who are called "Arminian" is, in my view, the grandfather of the very lowness of the present view of human depravity. I think of a ship setting out on a journey of 1,000 miles with a heading that is off by a single degree. It will end up hundreds of miles from its destination. Of course there are still some who hold to the very high Arminian tenets - you among them. But in my experience they are few and far between compared the countless millions who bumble around in the legacy of that seminal error, seen in everything from Finneyism, through the holiness movement and on into the sad mish-mash of modern day Christianity. Is Arminianism responsible for all of the ills? Of course not. But is it responsible for some of them? I think so.
In conclusion, I think it is fair to say that, in the strictest sense, those who deny the precise tenets of Arminianism cease to be Arminians. But its also (no offense) a bit naive. In practical terms there are millions of people out there who hold to the Arminian view of grace - a grace that is not irresistible but which raises man to a place where he can then decide whether to accept God's provision or not. I tend to believe that this sort of thinking had to have come from somewhere. And I believe it can be traced back through evangelical history to the time of the Remonstrance.
I'll let you have the last word between us on this exchange, brother.
I considered removing your post. Read the conditions in the side bar. One of them is a requirement for politeness. It is possible to disagree with me politely, especially if you actually choose to engage in refutation or the provision of an argument. But blowing in, blowing off and blowing out, just calling me a distorter or a slanderer, and leaving behind references to stuff I should read crosses a line. And your indirect implication that I substitute sectarian polemics for evangelical fervor in a diatribe against MY purportedly uninformed slander frankly betrays a hypocrisy that you are presently blind to. Take a breath. Take a leaf out of Dan's book.
Please note that comments on this topic are now being moderated. Posts that ignore the etiquette listed in the side bar will be deleted. Repeated violations will result in an outright ban.
While I can’t accept a compliment at Trav’s expense, I didn’t read your “Calvinism is the gospel” comment in a rigid sense, given you hadn’t also said: “we are almost all Arminians when we are first saved”. I also suppose that even though you think Arminianism is heresy, you must not think it to be damnable heresy, else you wouldn’t have called me brother.
it is fair to say that, in the strictest sense, those who deny the precise tenets of Arminianism cease to be Arminians. But its also (no offense) a bit naive.
Thank you. I am not so naive as to think the devil is above using anything to his advantage, either Arminianism or as you point in your next post, Calvinism.
It is in the operation of grace that the difficulty comes.
I agree.
Orthodoxy states that man is regenerated by an irresistible grace given to those for whom Christ died. But the Arminian view includes the element that saving grace is universally made available to all men by making the spiritually dead awake enough to make a right moral decision towards God. In the one case grace actually saves the elect and in the other case grace makes it possible for all to be saved, but does not necessarily save any one.
It’s true prevenient grace doesn’t save, subsequent grace does. Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved, how precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.
I'll let you have the last word between us on this exchange, brother.
Thanks, but on the question of is grace resistible or not, of course the last word is scriptures’.
Ezekiel 6:9 Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations where they are carried captive, because I was crushed by their adulterous heart which has departed from Me, and by their eyes which play the harlot after their idols; they will loathe themselves for the evils which they committed in all their abominations.
Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?
Psalms 81:11 “But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me. 12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels. 13 “Oh, that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways!
Mathew 11:21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mathew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.
Hebrews 12:15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
I'm no scholar or theologian, but I've been in both types of churches and i can state this is what I've seen from my experience:
Arminianism says you are saved, maybe, depends on how good you are, how much you study, how little you sin, and if you're not sinning the moment the Lord returns. It fosters a works mentality sets people up for failure, as law brings death, and the ensuing fear of death.
Calvinism says you are chosen and saved, due to Jesus' finished work nothing by what we can do to ever earn it. This is utterly freeing and creates joy and thanksgiving, which grows as we keep realizing that it is nothing to do with our performance. The bondage of sin and the fear of death is utterly destroyed as we believe in the true gospel of grace. It breaks the yoke, as the gospel is meant to do. Well, you say it so much better, but this is my way of saying Amen, brother!!
You are one of those whose path modern Arminianism has made more difficult. It does teach what you say it does. Classical Arminianism is a little less off the tracks. But as I stated in the article, much to the annoyance of some, modern Arminianism is the child of its antecedent.
11 Comments:
Dear Agonizomai,
How are you defining Arminian?
God be with you,
Dan
Dan,
Thanks for taking the time to read and to comment.
I tried in my post to convey the idea I believed Arminianism not to be a static belief system. What constituted Arminianism at the time of the Remonstrants was not the identical form taken on by the Wesleys. And the Arminianism of subsequent ages held by (some) prominent people and by many anonymous believers throughout the succeeding years was even further devolved from its early forms. Less "noble", if you like.
But since Arminianism in its nascent form questioned 5 areas of belief that the original reformers understood to be explicit in scripture, the church re-affirmed in response its original beliefs in a way tailored to address the specific questions. Since then, Armians have not, to my knowledge, rejected Arminianism's primary assertions. I contended that these assertions have had their influence on suceeding forms of belief that have come to be generally known as "modern Arminianism".
Strictly speaking, by "Arminianism" I mean a belief system that agrees with the Remonstrance on the 5 points at issue. But I don't contend that many of those who exhibit Arminian beliefs today necessarily recognize or identify themselves with the Remonstrance.
Thanks again for your gracious response. My other reader has yet to feel the need to comment :-)
Blessings
Dear Agonizomai,
I tried in my post to convey the idea I believed Arminianism not to be a static belief system.
I wonder if you’re allowing an opponent of Arminianism to define Arminianism? I am reminded of Muslims who say Christians view Mary as part of the godhead because of their mistaken interpretation of Catholic views.
The essentials of Arminianism (the 5 points of the remonstrants) include strong statements regarding the depravity of man, which is preserved in the Society of Evangelical Arminians statement of Faith: We believe that humanity was created in the image of God but fell from its original sinless state through willful disobedience and Satan's deception, resulting in eternal condemnation and separation from God. In and of themselves and apart from the grace of God human beings can neither think, will, nor do anything good, including believe.
Those who deny it, cease to be Arminians.
God be with you,
Dan
Having read through your article, I have to state that you have done nothing to accurately reflect the beliefs of most of the body of Christ. I can only wonder how you came about such a distorted view of the church of Christ. Have you considered researching the actual beliefs of those who constitute the Arminian body of Christ rather than continue an on-going assertion that lacks substance or support? When I encounter these types of postings I can only marvel at how thoroughly men substitute sectarian polemics for evangelical fervor. Perhaps you need only be made aware of resources to help you come to a better understanding of those you are slandering. The following might be of benefit.
http://arminians.org/index
http://wesley.nnu.edu/arminianism/arminius/index.htm
Blessings in Christ
A.M. Mallett
http://travelah.blogspot.com/
I wonder if you’re allowing an opponent of Arminianism to define Arminianism? I am reminded of Muslims who say Christians view Mary as part of the godhead because of their mistaken interpretation of Catholic views.
I don't think so. I tend to think of Prince Philip and Prince William in this situation. William is not Philip, but without Philip there could be no William. And they both have the surname "Windsor".
Though the essentials of Classical Arminianism "contain strong elements regarding the depravity of man" historically it is incontrovertible that they took a position that was contrary to the reformed church. And it is equally on the record that the Remonstrant view, including their view on the depravity of man, was sufficiently off base to be labeled heresy, and for the original teacher of its tenets to be posthumously anathematized.
Having "strong elements regarding the depravity of man", including all the things listed, ("We believe that humanity was created in the image of God but fell from its original sinless state through willful disobedience and Satan's deception, resulting in eternal condemnation and separation from God. In and of themselves and apart from the grace of God human beings can neither think, will, nor do anything good, including believe.") is commendable only insofar as those views are entirely congruent with the whole orthodoxy of the church on the matter of the depravity of man. If the Arminian position had done this, then the condemnation of its tenets would not have been so explicit. Then the Dutch would not need to have invented their saying of Arminius, "He may have been a heretic, but he was OUR heretic." :-)
So it falls to a proper systematic understanding of grace and salvation. The orthodox view of human depravity is that man lies in a state of spiritual death from which he can only be raised in Jesus Christ by the grace of God through faith in His finished work. It is in the operation of grace that the difficulty comes. Orthodoxy states that man is regenerated by an irresistible grace given to those for whom Christ died. But the Arminian view includes the element that saving grace is universally made available to all men by making the spiritually dead awake enough to make a right moral decision towards God. In the one case grace actually saves the elect and in the other case grace makes it possible for all to be saved, but does not necessarily save any one. So the actual meaning of the word "grace" is what is at issue. The church defined it one way and Arminianism, though it uses the same word, actually defines it another way.
The seemingly minor departure of the Classical Arminian view regarding the operation of grace upon human depravity, while so much closer to the truth than what is believed today by many who are called "Arminian" is, in my view, the grandfather of the very lowness of the present view of human depravity. I think of a ship setting out on a journey of 1,000 miles with a heading that is off by a single degree. It will end up hundreds of miles from its destination. Of course there are still some who hold to the very high Arminian tenets - you among them. But in my experience they are few and far between compared the countless millions who bumble around in the legacy of that seminal error, seen in everything from Finneyism, through the holiness movement and on into the sad mish-mash of modern day Christianity. Is Arminianism responsible for all of the ills? Of course not. But is it responsible for some of them? I think so.
In conclusion, I think it is fair to say that, in the strictest sense, those who deny the precise tenets of Arminianism cease to be Arminians. But its also (no offense) a bit naive. In practical terms there are millions of people out there who hold to the Arminian view of grace - a grace that is not irresistible but which raises man to a place where he can then decide whether to accept God's provision or not. I tend to believe that this sort of thinking had to have come from somewhere. And I believe it can be traced back through evangelical history to the time of the Remonstrance.
I'll let you have the last word between us on this exchange, brother.
Blessings
Trav (A.M. Mallett),
I considered removing your post. Read the conditions in the side bar. One of them is a requirement for politeness. It is possible to disagree with me politely, especially if you actually choose to engage in refutation or the provision of an argument. But blowing in, blowing off and blowing out, just calling me a distorter or a slanderer, and leaving behind references to stuff I should read crosses a line. And your indirect implication that I substitute sectarian polemics for evangelical fervor in a diatribe against MY purportedly uninformed slander frankly betrays a hypocrisy that you are presently blind to. Take a breath. Take a leaf out of Dan's book.
Blessings
Please note that comments on this topic are now being moderated. Posts that ignore the etiquette listed in the side bar will be deleted. Repeated violations will result in an outright ban.
Dear Agonizomai,
Take a leaf out of Dan's book.
While I can’t accept a compliment at Trav’s expense, I didn’t read your “Calvinism is the gospel” comment in a rigid sense, given you hadn’t also said: “we are almost all Arminians when we are first saved”. I also suppose that even though you think Arminianism is heresy, you must not think it to be damnable heresy, else you wouldn’t have called me brother.
it is fair to say that, in the strictest sense, those who deny the precise tenets of Arminianism cease to be Arminians. But its also (no offense) a bit naive.
Thank you. I am not so naive as to think the devil is above using anything to his advantage, either Arminianism or as you point in your next post, Calvinism.
It is in the operation of grace that the difficulty comes.
I agree.
Orthodoxy states that man is regenerated by an irresistible grace given to those for whom Christ died. But the Arminian view includes the element that saving grace is universally made available to all men by making the spiritually dead awake enough to make a right moral decision towards God. In the one case grace actually saves the elect and in the other case grace makes it possible for all to be saved, but does not necessarily save any one.
It’s true prevenient grace doesn’t save, subsequent grace does. Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved, how precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.
I'll let you have the last word between us on this exchange, brother.
Thanks, but on the question of is grace resistible or not, of course the last word is scriptures’.
Ezekiel 6:9 Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations where they are carried captive, because I was crushed by their adulterous heart which has departed from Me, and by their eyes which play the harlot after their idols; they will loathe themselves for the evils which they committed in all their abominations.
Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?
Psalms 81:11 “But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me. 12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels. 13 “Oh, that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways!
Mathew 11:21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mathew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.
Hebrews 12:15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
As promised, I will leave your post as the last word.
On the way out, you might consider stopping here for another check on how I regard Arminians as brothers.
Blessings
I'm no scholar or theologian, but I've been in both types of churches and i can state this is what I've seen from my experience:
Arminianism says you are saved, maybe, depends on how good you are, how much you study, how little you sin, and if you're not sinning the moment the Lord returns. It fosters a works mentality sets people up for failure, as law brings death, and the ensuing fear of death.
Calvinism says you are chosen and saved, due to Jesus' finished work nothing by what we can do to ever earn it. This is utterly freeing and creates joy and thanksgiving, which grows as we keep realizing that it is nothing to do with our performance. The bondage of sin and the fear of death is utterly destroyed as we believe in the true gospel of grace. It breaks the yoke, as the gospel is meant to do. Well, you say it so much better, but this is my way of saying Amen, brother!!
Roxylee,
You are one of those whose path modern Arminianism has made more difficult. It does teach what you say it does. Classical Arminianism is a little less off the tracks. But as I stated in the article, much to the annoyance of some, modern Arminianism is the child of its antecedent.
Blessings,
Tony
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